Masha
Maybe for our context as well, maybe you could just set the stage a little bit like what's your role, but also, what's your background? What are you up to these days?
Rachael
Sure. Yeah, I've been in Customer Experience, and more recently, Customer Success for most of my career. I started off really designing web-enabled applications and software, which got me into User Experience design. I was in book publishing and illustration before I got into that. So I was the design side. My career is, you know—a lot of CCOs' careers are interesting. It's not a normal career path, because it's a relatively new role. Going all the way back, started off got a degree in graphic design and started in book publishing. And then, early days of the Internet, when everything was enablement, I thought, this is super fascinating, because it's still information design, and taking people through content. Because if you've been in book publishing, when you get a manuscript, it's a mess, like it is not organized, but I figured that out, you need to figure out the Table of Contents, how to structure it. So it's information design, so I thought it can translate this into this new interactive realm. So became a design architect, and then got into designing software and thinking about end-users. And then that brought it out to well, it's not just the software experience, it's when are you using that software in the context of a larger experience. And so from there sort of got me into this whole world of Customer Experience and Engagement. That's the short story.
Masha
Very cool.
Rachael
So I ended up at Cisco in a group that was focused on helping our top customers with their Customer Experience because Cisco, between the networking gear and Wi-Fi and collaboration technologies, a lot of it intersected with the customer's experience or employee experience. So I lead a consulting group within Cisco focused on helping the likes of Home Depot, Walmart, Coca Cola, so really the top top brands, transforming their customer experiences. And developed a lot around how do you design experiences and think about that from the perspective of the brand, the touch points, price, product, all of that kind of goes in holistically into what you need to consider. And then thought, well—and I sort of make these career pivots. Because I'm one of the, I think you probably appreciate this, I like to build stuff and explore new things, which is why consulting is kind of good for me. But then I get bored, and I've got to go do something else. Like okay, been there, done that. Now it's just running the business. I'm not a run the business person. Yeah, so I wanted to try something new. So I took a role at Cisco running Customer Experience and what was Customer Insights. So the global data science team, did all the analytics on the customer data, to really help Cisco to think about how do we improve the experience across all the different product lines? And how do we bring more of that customer data insights into the business so that we could take action to help grow the business? We were also making a transition at that point, Cisco was into more of a sort of Customer Success led motion. Off of like, hey, drop the box on the doc of your hardware to software-driven business. So we made a complete shift and that required a very much a change in thinking so as part of helping to drive those efforts. And then, I was like, okay, as I got all that set up, I did that for about three years and thought, well, I love the role of Chief Customer Officer. I'm not sure where I could like take that on at a Cisco level. So looked for a spot where I could go, and found this company called LeanData. At LeanData, the core of what we do is automate processes or actions on top of Salesforce. So anything for apps with the customer data information, we create automations around those processes. And this was fascinating to me because at Cisco, I was working in with Sales and Marketing, a lot of the problems we had in executing the customer experience was, you know, the disconnect between the silos. And with LeanData, you can kind of automate those handoffs, you can monitor on behalf of what the customer wants to do. So if I come in and request a demo, at LeanData within three minutes, we can get you hooked up with the right salesperson who knows your needs and can talk to you about what you want to do. So someone comes in and Marketing team and hands it to Sales. And it becomes a huge, horrible buying experience. So just love that. So that's what we work on at LeanData is really how do we help orchestrate behind the scenes that buying experience by helping to automate on top of Salesforce. I know that was a lot, hope I'm giving all the points.
Masha
Yeah, no, that's fascinating. And I mean, you've got such a super interesting background. And you're right, like the other Customer Success leaders that we've been speaking with, do come to this from different directions. I feel like Design and Customer Experience share that. So yeah, it's really interesting. How big is your team now? How are you folks organized within LeanData as well?
Rachael
I have about 50 people on my team. I run everything post-sale, but I also have the Solution Consultants who are pre-sale, because we believe that the relationship with the client starts before that contract is signed. So we understand what are their pain points and needs? How do we line a product with what they're trying to do, then that kind of flows through? So I have the teams that are responsible for really facilitating that journey, ensure that we drive the right kind of adoption and satisfaction. So Solution Consultants, Professional Services, Customer Success, Customer Marketing, Support, Training, all are in my remit and CS ops. So I have the whole, you know, the whole thing at the moment.
Masha
Yeah, you've got the gamut. And maybe this is my first controversial question. How are you folks organized in terms of structurally in the organization?
Rachael
I have leaders for it—well I align my leaders to the different stages of the journey. So the Solution Consultant leaders responsible for the pre-sales, my PS leader for the implementation and on-boarding, CS for the ongoing adoption and growth. Customer Marketing kind of runs throughout, and is measured on successful adoption of things like certifications they're coming to, training and webinars because a lot of what the crux of us in driving growth in our customer base is by helping them get educated on how to use our product, it's just kind of how it works for us. But also, then Customer Marketing helps get those references and advocates as well as highlighting customer stories, they kind of work across the team. So yeah, we align to that journey overall.
Masha
Super interesting. So you didn't mention Sales. And kind of the reason I ask is we've seen a lot of configurations when Customer Success leadership, either reports directly to the C-suite, like the CEO or rolls into Sales or rolls into Ops. How are you folks organized now in terms of that structure? But also maybe to get your point on, what do you think is the best way to organize Customer Success? And what is the worst?
Rachael
Yeah, it's a very good question. I do report to the CEO.
Masha
So you're a standalone function?
Rachael
Yes. And so then we do collaborate with the Sales group. So the way Sales are structured is we have—well, we kind of divided the world into our big enterprise clients and smaller like SMBs because we almost have like two businesses. You know, big customers like Google, Facebook, Dell, and then small startups. And it's very different paradigm. So the Sales teams that are on Enterprise sort of stay with us and they collaborate with the CSMs, and what are the opportunities for growth. You know, we don't expect our CSMs to be great sales negotiators and no sales tactics or how to battle with your current, that's negotiation skills. We really lean on our Sales team to play that position. Customer Success does have to be the advocate to drive adoption, growth, understand what the customer really needs, make sure we're doing all the right things by them. Because we believe if we help them succeed, they will grow over time. That's proven, right? So it's that balance and in the lower end, we've got Account Managers that kind of are associated with a lot of accounts. So if there's a upsell opportunity uncovered by the CSMs, they are kind of brought into to help facilitate. So it's just slight differences in between how those roles work out, but there's a collaboration. The CRO and I, we work very well together and feel like the skills do align well. And we've sort of set it up so that Sales is definitely rewarded for upselling growth. Now, what might be—one of the things that, I don't know, I'm not sure I like having it. But I'm also responsible for renewals, which sometimes falls into Sales, but does fall into my organization. So I have a Renewals team as well. So really taking that customer through that renewal process. Sales will help us to negotiate, especially if there's a, you know, big upsell, or if there's challenges in the account, they're really great partners, but we're responsible for the renewal process.
Masha
And so have you seen one way or the other organizationally to be better or worse?
Rachael
I think a lot depends on the product, your customers, what they need, where you are, in terms of your company size and maturity. So I think we will evolve this. When I started three years ago, it was, the same person that implemented was Customer Success and Support, right? We were such a small company. So I think it does need to evolve. But right now, at the point in time we're, this is working for us. So it's hard to say. I think it depends.
Masha
And okay, so maybe this leads naturally into my next question, which is, what does actually Customer Success and Customer Experience—because you've got experience across those things—mean to you? And how do you know that it's, quote-unquote, “working”?
Rachael
Good questions. I think they're tied together. But I do feel that they are different. I think about Customer Experience, and the folks that are focused on it, it's really about the interactions with the company. It can also be its product, but I think it's those touch points and interactions from the website to services, that things are easy to use, that there are steps in the process, everybody knows how to facilitate those interactions. Those are all part of the customer's experience with your company. You have to think about what is the right experience based on your brand. So for example, let's take, Cadillac, right? Cadillac is a high price point, their brand is about the expression of arrival. Like if you get a Cadillac, it's kind of like a big deal. Maybe not as much as it used to be, but it's very high-end, and therefore you expect a high-end experience because you are dropping a ton of money. So you know, there's certain expectations. So experience is really thinking about how do you build the right focus and structure? And where do you have to spend in order to justify those prices? Apple Store too, right? There's certain kinds of experiences you're expecting them to deliver. So I think the experience you need to think about that on behalf of the company and ensure everybody's orchestrating the right way. I always like the idea of IKEA, too, because IKEA—well, IKEA, as they think about their experience, they try to do high design for less, which is kind of, that's not typically how you see things.
Masha
Almost an oxymoron.
Rachael
Right, exactly. So how do they do that? Well, they can't spend a lot in their experience. So they make you put that stuff together like you're not a customer, right? They make the customer put the furniture together so that you can get that high design for less and they did at the end of it, when you see your beautiful piece of furniture, you're happy with it, you will forget the pain you went through. Well, we don't quite, but. [Laughs] When you take that on, you know that you're getting, you're not paying much for it and in exchange, you have to do this. But that's where I think you really have to think about the experience and understand the business model. And that's where I think the Experience team comes in. I know I kind of belabour that, but to get the point. And then for Customer Success, I think it's really delivering—it's about being proactive and anticipating customers' needs, and getting them to value with the product or service. I think it's much more about achievement of outcomes with what you've purchased, like did you accomplish the why behind why you purchased? Which is why I think it's really been key in SaaS and software companies and adoption. But you're responsible for their success using your product or service and helping the customer on that product adoption journey. And then I think further to that, is ideally not only are you proactive, step them through so, “Hey, you've seen this and other companies like you, they've taken these three steps to get to, you know, better and better outcomes.” But I think more and more it's looking at other needs and bringing that back into the company. And that's super critical. You know, where do you expand to? What are the problems we could be solving? What do you think of the priorities and patterns you see across the customer base? But they really have to be the orchestrator of that adoption experience. I think, ultimately. I just keep saying, CSMs are about adoption. Yes, if you adopt something that gets us more money, great, but at the end of the day, it's really about adoption. And then if you do that right, you will grow, you will grow the account.
Masha
So maybe to follow on with that. This is a fascinating discussion. How do you then define—well, okay, let me ask it in a different way. Does value mean the same thing as revenue to you?
Rachael
I think the client getting to value—they have to have some kind of economic benefit, it could be that they improve their revenue, or they decrease their costs. But value for the client is you help to improve their business in some way. Giving them back time, etc. So I think value for the client is you want to get them to some business outcome. And then I think value for the company is, if you asked me, like, how do you measure the success of CSMs? It has to be that we grow revenue. I mean it has to be about retention. First retention, net retention, because at the end of the day, we are all here to deliver great experiences and products that solve problems so that we make money. That's at the crux of it. And if you're not, you have a team of CSMs and your revenues and your account has a horrible net retention is in decline, something's wrong. Not like it's the CSM's fault. But at the heart of it, if everything else is in place like we have a fabulous product at LeanData and customers stay. So I really lean on my team to get that first retention up. And we've been building that. So when we started it was about 110. And now we've been hitting 120-130. Because, yeah, we have a great product. And there is no reason why everybody shouldn't be using it to the full extent. So I know there's a lot in here.
Masha
It's interesting to tease apart.
Rachael
It's a lot. It's a whole system design.
Masha
Yeah, I love it. It's fantastic. That's my background, too. Like I'm in user experience research. And so I'm a lot of like a systems thinker. That's why this is so fascinating to me. But maybe from sort of a higher-level view, how have you seen—and maybe this touches on some of the stuff that you've already said—how have you seen the role of Customer Success actually evolved over the last couple of years?
Rachael
It's been fun to watch just through the lens of the candidates that we interview. Because a couple years ago, a lot of the CS folks would come in and they were maybe renewals focused, support, more support focused, and we're seeing more and more of folks that have more of the experience being more proactive, consultative in nature. So we've just seen that just through the candidates that we're bringing into the company. It's sort of starting to settle into, I think, what is the ideal Customer Success role? Which is you help the customer to be successful, not just reactive. So we're seeing more of that proactive skill sets.
Masha
Yep. That makes a ton of sense. And then if you had a crystal ball, how do you see it sort of changing, going forward five years, let's say. Not to blow out our horizon too much. But in the next five years, what do you see sort of coming down the pipe?
Rachael
Okay, we could spend a whole hour on this topic. [Laughs]
Masha
Totally.
Rachael
This is the fun part because I think this fundamentally, I don't think it's going to be incremental because I think if we think about where—I'll just talk about the world of software because that's where I live. I think we're just seeing this huge shift to product-led growth. I mean, if you think about, you know, using your product as that mean vehicle to acquire and activate and retain customers. I mean we use Slack, Dropbox. I don't need a salesperson to tell me the value of collaboration, I don't need a salesperson to tell me the value of putting my files out on a shared drive. So I think that that product experience, sort of becoming the essential part of the buying experience, is going to create a shift, a further shift in what is going to be the role of Customer Success. Even look at like Adobe, is a great example of where you don't need to reach out to a sales rep to start using Photoshop or Illustrator, you just download it, right? It might not be the full suite, but you just start using it. And so I get to try it, I don't need to book a demo, I don't need you to take me through the sales process. But further, once I'm in there, now it's about hey, what do you really need? What other capabilities? Do you need it for 10 people in your company or just you? There could be a discussion there. But that could also just start to be the Customer Success Manager understanding your needs and just helping you to figure it out. But I think we're just seeing a shift just overall in the market. And look, buyers don't want to interact with salespeople. We call it the millennial buyer but—because I think those terms get so overused. But the buying mindset is much more, I want to self serve, I want to figure this out myself. And we've seen those friends, right? Like you see the “79% of buyers don't come to you until they're, you know—or they're 79% through the process.” I don't know they get to 79%. But yeah, I think you just don't want that human at the outset. But I think will want that—it's not that you don't want to—you want a consult, but you want an experienced person who can take you from that initial trial.
Masha
Exactly.
Rachael
I know, I think that that means that the Customer Success team is really starting to—when you think about product lead company, then the Customer Success team is going to be thinking about how do we create a product that helps our customers be successful and continue to be successful and bringing that back? So they might have a product lead perspective, then just taking a product and saying, how do we apply it into the business. But they have to understand the value you bring to the customer and then additional places where you can go and provide additional value. And then bringing that back, but then also communicating the value to the customer, which is going to be part of the role today. Bringing it back to product is going to become more and more critical.
Masha
Right. How do you see—so this is a little off-script, but I'm fascinated by the way you're talking about it. Is this impacting your team today? How do you see them coping, your CSMs? I'm sure they're fantastic people and incredible workers, but just like this is a new, Brave New World. How do you see them coping with it?
Rachael
Oh, I think you're on point with that question. And I think there needs to be a therapist just dedicated to helping CSMs through the next three to five years. [Laughs] I mean, they're amazing. You had this question around this superpower. I think, what is critical is they're very empathetic people. And empathetic people who are very in tune with what's going around them are empathetic people who need to be taken care of and taken through a journey because they're very sensitive too. I mean, that's part of the superpower. But it's also why I think the change management and the shift is real. And I definitely feel that in a CSM team. It's a lot for them, as the changes can come pretty rapidly.
Masha
Yep. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, I guess in the last five minutes, I do want to ask you the superpower question. If you had a superpower related to Customer Success, what would it be, Rachel?
Rachael
I would love to have be able to be a couple steps ahead of our customers. I do spend time thinking about where the world is going to go not just for my team, but because this, you know, in helping them so that we kind of design back. But I think you know, being able to fast forward or see into the future so that I could help to be more proactive and help our customers see around corners. Yeah, that would make my life a lot easier than having to try to guess and speculate.
Masha
Yeah, that sounds like a good one to have. And then maybe as a last, like, finishing up question, what is the most controversial opinion that you hold about Customer Success that you wish folks just would hurry up and catch up to already?
Rachael
I know you asked this, I didn't really think about this. I think there's still the notion of that it's a reactive on task-driven organization versus an organization that really needs support in how to be proactive and get set up for success. And I don't think it can be distilled down into, you know, number of touch points or ADRs. I think it's not going to be the kind of organization that can kind of get distilled down into a bunch of interactions. And I don't know if it's controversial or not, but there needs to be a shift and enablement of CSMs that is about how you set them up to understand that next best option for the customer. To truly be proactive. And I think that we're still lagging there, even though it's not quite all reactive that's coming in, there's still not enough of like, set up—they kind of have to learn it. Everybody has to learn and I think just having it a little bit more of an understanding at a company level brought into the CSMs would help them be much more successful.
Masha
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I want to let you go on time. You've got about three minutes before your next call. Thank you so much for taking the time. I do want to kind of leave you a minute to ask if you have any questions for us, just open it up.
Rachael
Well, I was kind of curious about what you guys are up to. I would love to connect at some point because I looked at what you're doing, and I cannot wait to talk to you.
Masha
That's great!
Rachael
Yeah, I love talking about all this stuff. But I also, you know, I love being in innovation and coming up with, you know, the next—
Masha
That's awesome. Let me follow up on that with you. And we'll find some time, we'd love to run you through our product concept, some of the work that we've been doing, we're still very, very early stage. So you know, just a grain of salt. But since you're an innovator, I think you've got that down. So we'll make sure to follow up.
Rachael
I'm also part of an alliance of CCOs. So it could be interesting if there are things and ideas that you're you see going on out there. I also have an audience you can run it by just to see what they think. And it's cost us sort of spectrum of industries. So, you know, happy to support the innovators out there. I haven't been doing enough of that. So I was like oh, this is great. Definitely, like, thanks for reaching out. I've thought about this all day.
Masha
No, of course. No, this is great. Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with us. Like this is exactly what we need. So really appreciate that, Rachel.
