Masha
I'm really excited to chat to you today, Michelle. Can you talk a little bit about your role, your team, but also your background? How did you get into Customer Success?
Michelle
Yeah, absolutely. We can start way back. [Laughs] My whole life, I was on the law track, I was going to be a lawyer. Everything in college lined me up for that. And I was pretty fortunate to get a clerkship at a corporate law for a while I was an undergrad, which was a great experience and ultimately changed my life. Because there's many different types of law. But ultimately, I was like, I just don't think this is what I want to do with my life. At the time with digital marketing and everything was really coming up and way before COVID, people already having some flexibility. My then-boyfriend at the time, who turned into my husband, he was working in action sports and travelling all the time and working crazy hours, but everyone was so happy and in love with what they're doing. I was like, I need that. I need to have something that I'm passionate about, that I can be flexible and travel. So it kind of led me to the tech world. And ultimately, Customer Success is how I got into it. I applied for a copywriting position, I didn't have a lot of experience in like SEO and paid media. But I was like, I know I can write and then I just studied a lot of those things on my own. When I went to the interview, they followed up with me, it was a big tech company in Burlington, Vermont called Dealer.com. They said we'd love to have you come back and interview for an SEO analyst position, which was actually like a couple steps above. Looked like I knew what I was doing.
Masha
Good for you! [Laughs]
Michelle
That's how it started and that just kind of progressed from there. So most of my career has been in MarTech on the paid media side and working on that. And I actually just started at MX about two months ago. It was a pretty big switch from MarTech and Fintech. But I'd been at my previous company for five and a half years, started when it was super small, there was only two CSCs on the team at the time. And I grew that out to 15, while simultaneously building a team in the Philippines that helped support us. It really just reached a point where—not that I was bored, that wouldn't be fair. There was always new things that came up every day. But essentially, I just wasn't feeling as challenged or like I was personally growing and learning. So I was like, I need to change. So I took a couple months and started looking into different fields that I might be interested in, finding companies that I liked, and just started interviewing. I actually interviewed with MX originally for a high-level IC role. I was like, maybe just switch. I just need to do that. But then ultimately, in talking to them, I was like, no, I love managing a team and coaching people and bringing them up and seeing them succeed is so rewarding to me. So we were like, okay, let's just hold it for now. We'll see what comes down. And then they had a Director position open on their Enterprise team.
Masha
Nice.
Michelle
Yeah, let's do it. So they have a very rigorous interviewing process. It was seven rounds.
Masha
Holy!
Michelle
And so you know whether you are going to like that company or not. Or if they're gonna like you. So here we are and absolutely loving it. It's an amazing company that's really changing the world. I've never worked for a company that is so mission-driven. Their mission is to make the world financially strong. And everything kind of ties into that from their seven core principles. And it's very rewarding, but it's a lot of work. We're in the hyper-growth state, potentially looking at IPO or some type of acquisition if that makes sense sometime in the next few years. So there's just a lot of moving parts and pieces right now.
Masha
Sounds exciting. What's your team like right now then?
Michelle
Yeah, so it's been really cool because I'm coming into new space, and then their product set is quite complex, what I'm doing at the moment is teaming up with one of the other Directors to kind of help with that team. And then I'm also working on a number of special projects. So everything from our Strategic Business reviews, making sure that those are more standardized. Because people are doing all this great work, but we haven't been great about documenting it and making sure that we're delivering a consistent message and experience. So that'd be one example of one of the special projects that I'm working on right now. So the plan will be at the start of the new year to officially divide up the team. So there's two other Directors in this enterprise space, which are our largest clients, financial institutions. One is out on maternity leave, and the other one I'm partnering with to kind of cover the whole load, and then we'll divide up the team at the start of the year.
Masha
Wow. Maybe this is my first controversial question for you. How are you folks organized right now, in terms of where you report to? And who reports to you?
Michelle
Yes. So they made a switch before I got here probably last year, which I think was really smart. And aligned all of the revenue side of the house under one President. So Sales and CS all sit within the same side. I mean, there's VPS, and all the way up, but ultimately, all reporting up the same chain, which I think is really smart. Because sometimes you can get that contention between Sales and CS, and making sure that everyone's on the same page, have the same goal and rolling up onto the same OKRs. I think that's been really smart.
Masha
What's the contention usually about? Because I was going to ask you like my follow-up question, but maybe I'll hold that one for a second. What's the contention usually about in your experience?
Michelle
There could be a lot of things. So I mean, I've kind of sat on both sides. So I can appreciate both sides. Sales is Sales—they have a quota that they need to meet. At times, they can kind of promise the world and then CS has to try to find a way to deliver on that. On that side, we also have salespeople that are very technical and very good at what they do and building relationships. And then maybe they don't think the CS side is carrying that out as well as that they think that they should. So I don't think it's really a fault on either side. But it's generally a lack of understanding of what that role really entails, the pressures those people are facing because some are same and some are very different.
Masha
Right. So maybe to follow on that. What in your mind is the best way to organize customer success to kind of set them up for success, organizationally? And what's the worst?
Michelle
Yeah, so I think the way we're doing it here is the best. And aside from the actual structure, it's the process. It really starts from that sales side on setting the right expectations. And that's going to set everybody up from Sales to the client to the CS side of the org to be successful, if what was kind of initially sold. It's really hard to backtrack once to kind of set a certain expectation, that might not be exactly how we normally do it, then you just got to change all kinds of different levels of perception. And that's not for everyone. So again, kind of structuring it this way, where everyone ultimately rolls up to the same President. And setting those overall directives, I think it just helps smooth that out. So the flip side of that, the worst side, I think, would be to be very siloed. And there's that balance of kind of fighting for your team, like the VPS on the CS side, and then also like being like, no, we're a very cross-functional organization. And we all need to work together. So I think having that balance and the more barriers you can break down, the better.
Masha
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And how, I guess—and you've been across industries. How have you seen the role of Customer Success really change and evolve over the last couple of years?
Michelle
Yeah, good question. I think one of the biggest things, maybe two to five years has been that role being much more strategic. So I came in—I mean, there's always going to be an element of fire comes up, you need to put it out, you can be a little bit of an order taker. Ultimately, the more strategic you can get, and having those larger conversations and going high and wide within an organization. So you have a lot of different touchpoints and perspectives, that's changed quite a bit. And pushing people in this type of role and in our teams, to be more strategic, to have those larger business conversations, to take yourself out of the house that you're currently in, whether that's the digital marketing, or you're handling their technologies in some space, and to try to get a greater grasp of their overall business. I've seen that a lot. I worked a lot with Google in my last company. So they did a lot around that, and then I've just seen it kind of everywhere else ever since.
Masha
That's super interesting. And so what would you say—maybe just to dig a little bit on that—what are some of the ways in which, I guess, that's new to terms of like, what are some of the skills that maybe the Customer Success folks on the ground are missing to kind of figure that out? Because that sounds like you said, that's the strategic job, right?
Michelle
Yeah, it can be difficult. And it's funny in multiple organizations I've been in, people always say we're looking for unicorns in who we hired but a lot of people are looking for those unicorns because essentially, you want someone that's pretty technical. Like if they need to, they can get in there they can help you know, translate support tickets and get those through but they also need to have those communication skills and be able to build relationships. So you're looking for generally kind of what is housed in two different personality types. More analytical, technical, and then also not always an extrovert, but that person that likes to talk and have conversations and dig out from these people, what are your actual business goals. So I think there's been a lot of trying to marry those two together. Sometimes I've seen it kind of split, they end up having the person that's more technical, and then you have more of like an Account Director type role. That's that strategic person that comes in and has a larger book of business that they help with to have those conversations. So I think there's a number of ways here. You're either really trying to find those special people that can do it all. Or you're starting to split off and figure out what makes people happy. Do they love digging into the data and figure things out? Do they like having those conversations, and then creating appropriate roles for them and kind of having these pod structure type teams?
Masha
Yeah, that's fascinating. If you had a crystal ball, how do you see—of course, we all want one—how do you see the role changing maybe in the next five years?
Michelle
I think there's going to be more of that. Whoever you talk to, the companies are always trying to get to this prescriptive level. I think it's unrealistic to say that you're never going to have those challenging relationships with clients that they keep surfacing problems. Hopefully, you can mitigate some of that, in being in this more prescriptive space. It's just getting there. And it's easy to say in theory, of course, like if we have a roadmap, and if we have a plan, and we're on the same page, and we understand the business goals, it should just be smooth. I love that in theory, but I'm also a realist and understand there's going to be certain elements you can't change. But I think we'll get closer to that in having the right structure set up so that you can be more of that strategic partner, that you have the processes in place from the get-go, where you really understand the challenges that companies facing, what problems are they trying to solve and coming to you, and then creating that strategic plan. So that the conversations on your monthly, weekly, whatever the cadence is, calls isn't so much like, “Hey, what issues are you facing? Or what are your numbers look like for the last week?” It's more like, “Okay, here we are on our plan, these are the elements that still need to put in place. How have your business goals changed now that we're halfway through the year?” Those types of conversations, I think it's just going to continue to evolve that way.
Masha
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. What would you say is the most controversial opinion that you hold about Customer Success, that you kind of wish that folks would just hurry up and kind of catch up to?
Michelle
Yeah, I think one of the—it depends on the organization because I've seen it run in a number of different ways. Especially in SaaS, I think one of my more is, I just think CS should do more on the Sales side, the upsell, cross-sell, renewals. A lot of places the Sales team comes back in for those renewal conversations. They help facilitate a lot of the upsell, cross-sell, even though most CS teams will have their own quota to fill. And I think we could just level up and have people that sit within the CS org, that helped focus on that. It could almost be more of that Account Director type role. And then it wouldn't be so necessary for sales to stay involved. Like they could be constantly out hunting that new, as opposed to this. It's super controversial. And there's a lot of salespeople that do really well, they're great at building relationships, they're technical, they make a lot of money in continuing those relationships. But for me, what makes the most sense—and part of that can be biased because I have a bit of a sales background at times. I personally, don't find those skills super hard. Some people are like, no, I never want to do that. Now make no mistake, I can't be out there cold calling and feel that type of rejection. But when it comes to relationship-building sales, like I think that could sit more in the CS side.
Masha
Right. And so maybe if I just dig a little bit, this has been also a controversial question that we've asked. Does value mean the same thing as revenue to you?
Michelle
No. It really depends on the client's goals. A lot of times it does translate down to a bottom line. I mean, when you're in the marketing world, you might do an exposure-type play. And there's certainly a place for that and branding and all that. At the end of the day, though, generally the C-suite and the stakeholders want to see that bottom line. But I think ultimately it comes down to again, what are the business objectives? What are they trying to achieve? And sometimes even in this space, again, it generally eventually trickles down into money, but it might be something like, you know, we just want more engagement on our app, because we know the stickier that we get, that will translate down the line. So I guess if you were really gonna boil down to it, I think eventually it does but I think value can be added in so many different ways that don't necessarily get categorized as revenue.
Masha
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Michelle
Those strategic conversations, like sometimes, you know, you're talking to so many different types of clients. And that experience you can bring to another client, you know, “Hey, I've kind of seen this work.” And a different way that they never thought about it. And to see those light bulbs go off, and people get excited. I think that's value that you can burn.
Masha
Absolutely. And like you said, right, relationship building, there's no way that that's not going to add into “Oh, hey, you know, Michelle actually knows a lot about our industry, like, maybe we can tap her as a resource.”
Michelle
For sure, for sure. To be that expert and that consultant-type role that they want to go to. That's huge.
Masha
You know I realized that I skipped over my very first question, which was, what does Customer Success actually mean to you? And how do you know that it's working? I think we should have started there. But maybe we can just backtrack.
Michelle
No worries. For me, it's interesting, I think that Customer Success kind of sits in the middle of everything. And then you're responsible for representing your clients' best interests, and you're also responsible for representing the company's best interests. And you have to bring that together and really delivering the product to the best of its ability so that the clients are getting the most out of it, bringing their feedback to maybe the Product team or other organizations within your company to make that better. So I think they really have to create this experience and take it all the way through. Oftentimes, most companies, CS will get involved during the Sales process when you get in later stages, so they can start to understand what it's going to be like to work with you. And then obviously, you own that relationship for the entirety of the lifetime. So you're really this person that's creating this experience for the clients. And I think in terms of knowing that it's successful, I think it's when you can extract those larger business goals, and you aren't meeting them. So when you're doing your Strategic Business reviews, or your kickoff in the beginning of the year to figure out what success means, being able to actually clearly identify those and have them be measurable goals, because interestingly enough, a lot of times, companies now, the bigger thing they're trying to achieve, but when you ask them to boil down, okay, let's get some KPIs that are measurable, it can be really challenging. So having that skill to be able to do that, and then meeting it, I think that's success because that's going to lead to renewals and potential expansion.
Masha
Yeah, totally. If I were to ask you a cheeky question, if you had a Customer Success related superpower, what would you like it to be?
Michelle
Just for work, because I wouldn't want that in life. But it would be reading minds. I wouldn't want to know what everybody on the streets thinking but—
Masha
No! Please no. [Laughs]
Michelle
In CS, something will surface and there's some tension there, and you need to figure it out. But it's not always initially what they say it is. Sometimes when you ask some clarifying questions, and you start peeling back the layers, you start to realize, it could be a whole number of things. Potentially, there's a new boss that's come in and really probing them. So your contact is like pushing you. So if you could just kind of cut through all that and see it from the get-go. I mean, I'm a very Type A, let's just go. So I would love to just cut through all that and move on. That'd be amazing.
Masha
You mentioned before that one of your favourite things to do is actually coaching your team. What are the things that you find yourself kind of saying over and over to your team around what are the skills that you tried to kind of impart there?
Michelle
Yeah, there's a lot around that strategic play and having the right conversations and how to be able to talk to executives and figure out the different personality types and personas. When you're in this space long enough, you start to see kind of different shapes mould, and how you should interact with those people. There's the folks that you always need to give like homework because they need to be involved. And they need to have their takeaways. There's the folks that just want you to tell them what they're doing. Here's the results and move on to the next. So it's one of my favourite parts just because I like people. I always say that one of my best training was waitressing through college, because I very quickly learn the types of people like you should joke with or the people that just want you to deliver their food and shut up and you're working for tips. So you want to figure out who these people are so you can make the most money while you're paying for college. So there's a lot around that. And that's probably one of my favourite parts.
Masha
That's super fascinating. Oh yeah, you had a question.
Anwar
Yeah, just on this theme of collaboration, I guess what are the types of collaboration with other departments within your company that seem to yield the most success or deliver the most successful for you?
Michelle
Yeah, good question. I think, again, because I'm in CS, we're kind of the heart of everything. So we get to work with almost everyone. We help shaping with Product when we get feedback, like, “Hey, our clients are really looking for this feature within the tech.” So you get to give that back. We work with Enablement, who is rolling out all kinds of different things, both internally and externally for our clients. We work with Support all the time when there's tickets that come through. We're working with Sales in that is this the right fit for us? Is this going to be successful? So I think we're kind of lucky that we can work with so many people and throughout the organization, that in this particular role and stuff, I don't know if there's one that's more successful. We have to crush it with every department or we're not gonna be successful.
Masha
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Michelle, what's the one story that sticks out for you, that really exemplifies Customer Success life that we haven't asked you about, but you would like to share?
Michelle
That's a good question. I think if I was going to make that analogy back to the heart, like if we looked at an organization as a human body. We might say that Product and Dev are the brain and maybe Marketing is the lungs that gives breath to this and Sales is the legs because they're out there running. But CS kind of sits in the heart of it all. Like we are the ones that have to keep pumping blood through everything to keep this relationship going and make it successful. And without it—actually funny enough, at my last company, when they started it, they had this vision that they would create this great product, they'd go outsell it and it'd be so good, you won't even need a Customer Success organization. It would just run. And they sold a lot. They got to like 5 million ARR without a CS team. But their churn rate was like 80%. Because you can have the best technology in the world, but we still need people. You need someone guiding that ship and understanding what are the business goals and teaching the clients like how are you going to get the most out of this technology. So I think just that analogy of CS being the heart and soul of the company of the body, of the organization, to keep things pumping and moving and living.
Masha
That's a beautiful analogy. I've actually seen—I think there was a book about product-led growth that talked about Customer Success as the eyes, ears and heart. So yeah, maybe even more important than just the heart. [Laughs]
Michelle
Everything. Just the whole body.
Masha
Exactly. Michelle, this has been really, really lovely for us. We learned a ton. Thank you so much for taking the time.
