Masha
Thank you so much for taking the time, Emily. If you could set us up with a little bit of context as well, you know what your role is? What are you up to up PetDesk? What does your team look like? But also like, how did you arrive into Customer Success? Folks have such amazing stories about this.
Emily
Oh my goodness. And I have like, I think like many, I have that circuitous path that got me here that makes us all, you know, have such different perspectives on on what we do. But right now at PetDesk, I am the Head of Customer Success. So I direct the strategic direction of our Customer Success function. And I also serve as the Manager of the Customer Success team. So the individual contributors on that team. So at a high level, I oversee our Retention team, our Customer Success team, our Support team, and also our Implementations and Training team.
Masha
Beautiful.
Emily
Yeah! Right? I call it zooming-in and zooming-out, like I'll zoom-in to the Customer Success and then I'll zoom-out. Like what's going on with Support? What's going on with Implementation? So it's been a great way to get to know the company and the product and the people. And the customers in some respect, although I want to get to know them even better in the coming months.
Masha
Absolutely.
Emily
Yeah. And then my route to Customer Success, I don't know how much backstory you want. But I'm actually, I have kind of a technical background for my education. So I spent my early years in environmental work. And just there wasn't enough human interaction for me doing that line of work. So I went into more of like, Sales, Account Management, kind of what was known as Customer Success back then. And then, when I was at Wonder, which is a testing company, like a psychometric testing company, I moved from a marketing role into Customer Success and managed our team of people who retained our customers. And really, I feel like, you know, there's moments in your life when everything kind of comes together, and you go, "Oh, I'm so glad I walked down this path and got to see all the stuff knit together," because, you know, the data, the the scientists, part of me loved the data and analytics, and then the human part of me, loved the fact that we were solving problems for customers, and we were, you know, making them happy and getting that, I mean, kinda like validation that our product is great, because people are renewing, and they keep using it. So it's just been full steam ahead since I had that epiphany.
Masha
Right. It sounds like it was like a great role for you to arrive into from such a set of different paths.
Emily
Yeah, right? Everybody's got a similar story, you know, people come up through Sales, and they come up through all kinds of areas on how they land here. I know people who were in finance who ended up in Customer Success, and you know, we just have all—many are called I suppose. [Laughs]
Masha
But as you mentioned, the variety of perspectives must be super important, right? Just having kind of these different views. Maybe to that end, I know, we kind of jumped in, but if we step back a little bit, how would you define Customer Success? What does it really mean to you?
Emily
Yeah, for me, you just need to look at the the two words. It really is making sure that our customers are getting what they need from our product and achieving—I mean, this is probably the answer that everybody gives, but they need to achieve what they need with our product. And I think that they should be delighted while doing it, as well. It's not just about the outcomes. It's about, you know, did we bring a smile to their day? Did we bring some levity to their life? Veterinarians have a super high suicide rate.
Masha
Oh my.
Emily
They are faced with intense challenges in their roles. They get what's known in the industry as "compassion fatigue". You are dealing with, you know, a lot of suffering, you're dealing with pet owners who cannot afford to give life-saving treatment to their animals. And when you enter a field to help and save animals—I just cannot even wrap my mind around what they have to go through every day. And if we can delight them or make their lives easier, or even like, write an email to be human and light hearted and a little confetti or a little emoji and, you know, any brightness that we can bring to their world, I think is really, really rewarding for me and the whole team.
Masha
Yeah. Wow, that's really beautiful way of looking at it. I guess, maybe to follow on then, you started alluding to this, how do you know that it's working in terms of measurement? So if you were stuck on a desert island, and you could bring one metric with you—which I don't know why you would bring a metric to a desert island, anyway. But if you could, you know, just have to choose one, is there a metric that you couldn't live without to understand whether it's been working?
Emily
Oh my goodness, a single metric...
Masha
Right. [Laughs]
Emily
I suppose, you know, if you have a really good health score, that would be a great metric. And you had given me this question in preparation, and I'm gonna go off of, maybe off script here...
Masha
Let's do it!
Emily
What lands it for me is the comments that we hear.
Masha
Okay. So more qualitative?
Emily
It's a little more qualitative, it's a little more onesie-twosie. It's not like, "Oh, our average health score is 80 on scale of 100. That means we're doing well." I think those things are very important. But what really cements it for me, and lets me know that what we're doing is working is when I hear or read those comments of, "Hey, your tool is like having another full time employee on our staff," or "Your tool saved me from having to hire somebody else." You know, "It's a good investment for me," when when customers call us a "godsend" or "What did I do before you?" You know, it could be the ego talking here, but that really, it means a lot. To hear statements like that is super, super meaningful to me. And certainly, in those cases of those people who, who generously give us those comments, I know that the solution is working for them. Can you scale that? No. But, you know, if you do have other proxies for maybe that sentiment that's behind all the data, then I think that's really powerful.
Masha
Really cool. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. To go a little bit off script as well, we've riffed a little bit on the question, since you and I think chatted, but what would you say are kind of the top three qualities that you look for, let's say, in the CS folks that you're hiring, or kind of the most brilliant CS folks that you've ever worked with or that you've been inspired by, what are kind of the top three qualities that you absolutely are like "this is a must have" to be successful in Customer Success?
Emily
Yeah, I'm just jotting some notes really quickly here, because I have my list, I'm like which ones should I chat about here? I think, you know, first and foremost—and this one I didn't have to write down because this is always what's on my mind—I do think a very heightened sense of empathy is something really well—a CSM with a good sense of empathy is really well equipped to, to succeed in this role, because there is so much mental transposition of your brain into your customer or into your Sales team or into your Support team. In Customer Success, we're constantly trying to see things from somebody else's perspective and point of view. And empathy as a human quality, I think is kind of your unleaded gas, like your maximum octane fuel to transpose yourself and think that way. Conversely, if you don't have that sense of empathy, and you can't relate to customers, and you can't relate to that salesperson, who needs that commission and doesn't, you know, can't lose this customer, can't lose the sale. I think you could have some really big challenges in your role, you might be able to focus more on the data and kind of the mechanics of it, but you're never going to make it all the way to the top if you don't have that sense of empathy. I also, and this one isn't quite as glamorous, but I do think time management, if you don't have a sharp sense of how to manage yourself and manage your time, we all struggle with this. It's going to be an unhappy role for you, you know, you're not going to ever feel like you're on top of it, you're gonna feel like you're just being pulled down that whitewater river and never have control over your schedule. And the third, I would probably say, for our purposes here, would be to understand change management, both for yourself as SaaS companies get acquired and acquire other companies or build new products or change things to be able to like re-shift how you think about what you do. And also, you know, a customer is going through a change as well, like that whole process, especially if you're product, if they haven't used anything similar to your product in the past, that could be a huge shift for them. And it's, it gets harder, the better you know the product, the harder it gets for you to understand, and empathize with somebody who doesn't understand exactly all the ways it can pay off. And maybe that journey of being brand new to really getting gaining mastery in what you offer. So I think that's really important, too.
Masha
Yeah, no, that's a great way to tie it back. Because it almost sounds like in order to do that, then you need empathy again, right, in order to feel it and figure it out.
Emily
Yeah, right? We get veterinarians in the door, who have never used a technological tool. Of course they're brilliant, like, they're doctors, they're physicians. They're super accomplished in their field. But, you know, the concept of not having to call everybody to remind them of an appointment is new, and it's an adjustment. And, you know, we can all think of times in our lives when we made that shift and we had to adjust. I mean, when I got my first DVR, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I can pause! And do all this stuff, I don't know, I can, you know, make some popcorn and just come back and not miss anything." And that's change management. And the folks who I think do really, really well at the Customer Success profession, they get it and they're mindful and respectful of that.
Masha
Totally. What would you say right now, and you've started talking about what's top of mind for you. But I guess if you were to take kind of a lens of, you know, we know what happened in the past, we kind of have seen the trends in Customer Success, and then becoming more strategic and all those pieces. How would you kind of qualify the biggest challenge facing Customer Success right at this moment, kind of in this day and age, with all the context that's going on around us?
Emily
Yeah, I think a huge challenge that's facing a lot of people in Customer Success right now— and this is based on my little window into the world—but you know, when I was interviewing last year for roles, so many people who were looking to add a leader to their CS team, had a couple things on their mind. One was scaling up their Customer Success Managers, because they had all come from different parts of the organization, or parts of the world. And the second was scaling what they do with smaller business customers. I do feel like Customer Success in those early days, was really rooted in the big, glamorous customer. You know, we're going to create elaborate success plans and have these business reviews, and we're going to put executives in touch with each other. It's all good, good, good stuff. And I love that part of Customer Success. But I think the smaller business segments are getting more attention these days in figuring out how to make a team of five, six, ten Customer Success Managers effective as that small business segment grows and grows and grows and not have to scale up, you know, every time you add 100 customers or 1000 customers, is a challenge I think that we're facing right now. And it's what I heard, I want to say nine times out of ten when I was interviewing with different companies last fall.
Masha
Right. Yeah, that's a super important one. And how do you maintain that humanity, that empathy, right? Because I think a lot of companies jump to "Well, let's automate all the things!" Right?
Emily
Yeah! And, you know, automation that's my thing—I think when the last question you asked was like, what could you go back and tell yourself? I would go back and tell myself that automation doesn't mean that a robot is talking to your customers and that they feel like a robot talking to them. Like there's a way to embrace automation that isn't necessarily a cold, impersonal, you know, non-human way of interacting with your customers, but it can be personal, it can be relevant, it can be timely. It can make better use of the humans that you do have. Right? As they start every day, they could have 100 different areas to put themselves. And automation can help them shrink that down to like, okay, these are the five areas where the customer really needs to hear my voice live and these other 95, I can have an email that sounds just the way I sound and really like, is asking for them to schedule time with me or, you know, it looks... I don't want to say believable, that's probably not the right word. But it seems authentic and genuine. And I think that's what I would tell myself two years ago, is don't be afraid of automation.
Masha
Right. That's such an important thought. And striking that balance and finding that tone, right, so that it's not super cold and scary. But it's also not, doesn't mean that you have to scale your team linearly, as you scale up your customer base. Right. Totally. How do you see, then, you know, we kind of we glossed over a little bit the past, but that's okay. But then, you know, we talked about the current state. How do you see, I guess, the role of Customer Success, both the function and maybe the discipline, kind of evolving in the next, let's say, five years, if I were to hand you a crystal ball?
Emily
Yeah, I think, you know, we've made such good progress at getting a seat at the executive table in the last 10 years. And so I see that growing. I see, you know, we all love Sales and Sales keeps us going. And I think there's a lot of companies out there that might need to balance out their sales and Customer Success executive presence. Planning where the resources go, to apply more to the bulk of existing customers versus what is coming down the pike. So I see that happening. And then I also see Customer Success Management evolving even more as a profession. And, you know, there are certification programs out there now. I think, you know, there there could be a, a governing body over certain certifications that—and there could be, I mean, it could have happened in the last six months, and I'm not aware of it. But I think some of those companies that offer those programs are working on that as well to make it, just moving into the next step of evolution as a profession. And I would love to see it even extend back into colleges and universities and, you know, especially as subscription economies emerge, subscription products are popping up everywhere. I think it would be wise for us to even look back into our business schools or even community colleges and teach Customer Success as a career option for folks.
Masha
Mmhmm. Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. In line with what you mentioned—[dog barks] Oh hi!
Emily
At PetDesk we all have pets. [Laughs]
Masha
Very on-brand!
Emily
Perfectly on cue.
Masha
You know, to follow on what you were saying about, and I think that there has been, that's a sentiment that we've heard from a few Customer Success leaders that we've spoken to, where it still feels like Customer Success is only now kind of gaining the presence, right, to kind of be seen almost on-par, or at least coming up to be on-par with our Sales cousins. Right? And seeing the importance of that. And of course, you know, COVID probably played a big part in that right grounding, kind of some net new sales. So what in your mind is kind of the right relationship of Customer Success folks to revenue? How do you see that equation?
Emily
Yeah. Can you explain what you mean by that a little bit more? Because we obviously have a direct relationship to our existing recurring revenue? Is that what you're talking about?
Masha
Well, and I guess just if you talk about maybe kind of how you view it, because I know some folks like to sort of separate, it's like a church and state kind of thing from existing revenue to new revenue. Some folks have been—we've spoken to a couple of CS leaders, I don't know if you folks are exploring that at all, but they're bringing Account Management from Sales into the Customer Success organization, so that any kind of expansion, whether it's cross-sell or upsell or any additional revenue from existing customers is actually owned by the Customer Success folks. So I'm just curious how you see it? And what makes the most sense in your mind to align kind of incentives appropriately?
Emily
Yeah, yeah. So I've kind of worked under both scenarios of, you know, Customer Success being kind of the gatekeepers of all recurring revenue, and then having Sales and Account Management be, you know, report up through a different leader in the company. But, you know, dip into the existing customer base to kind of foster their leads. And, you know, conversely, Account Management and Sales, working more closely with the Customer Success team, to upsell, cross-sell, and grow the existing customer base. And having Customer Success be a stakeholder not just in gross retention, but in net retention as well. And I really love the way that it is evolving at PetDesk right now. The company has changed, like 360 degrees, or 180 degrees in the past year, really. Last year at this time, Customer Success was identifying their own upsell targets, having the conversation, doing the demo, signing them up, training them, like completely upsold. And we did it that way at at a previous company as well. You know, that has its pluses and minuses. After I came on board, and we also hired in our first official upsell AE who has really gelled well with the Customer Success team. They're super, super excited about working with him. And, you know, we're fostering an environment of, you know, we're all kind of in this together and any churn that we see is counterbalanced by other accounts expanding. And I think it gives the team a really good perspective on how we run our business, right? Like we're not just focusing on one end of this equation. It's fully comprehensive. Are we going to, you know, are we going to identify issues that mitigate churn to try to make things better there and not just try to counterbalance it with upsell? Of course. We're going through all of those exercises. But I really—and this person, this AE, reports up through Sales, but we've got a really close relationship with our Sales leader and me. I've actually hardly worked with such a reasonable and collaborative Sales leader in my life. [Laughs] Like I'm so fortunate, I'm so lucky, because I'm sure will disagree someday, but it hasn't happened yet. And I think, you know, that comes from both of us being able to take a step back and look at the entire business. And sometimes there are moves that are right for the company, where Customer Success needs to give a little bit of flesh, you know, get a little flesh wound. In some cases it's Sales and I think when you can agree that something needs to happen for the health of the organization, even if your team might need to take a hit for a month or a quarter or something and you are willing to do that, it shows a lot of integrity. So that's around revenue, that's how we are set up at PetDesk. And I'm really, it's going extraordinarily well. And I'm really excited to see what it holds for us this year.
Masha
That it's so great to hear. I'm really glad to hear that.
Emily
Yeah! Right? And having CSMs try to upsell... We take “no” a little easier than a sales professional does. [Laughs]
Masha
Sure, sure!
Emily
It's not always the best, you're not going to get all the the fruit out of the tree that way. You'll get some but not all of it.
Masha
Right. And yeah, it really sounds like the collaboration—I love the idea of sort of having your common being kind of a united front up against kind of business goals, right? Like if you think about it that way versus "what's mine, mine, me, me, me," or... It makes a ton of sense.
Emily
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's really game changing. But not everybody has that perspective. So that that could be, you know, in terms of growth areas for Sales and CS leaders, I guess in any leader, like challenge yourself to zoom-out and look at organizational health and how you fit in.
Masha
Totally. I love that just as a growth mindset lens perspective, right?
Emily
Sure. Yeah.
Masha
Okay, last question for you and I promise I'll let you go. We have spoken to quite a few customers successful folks. We've heard that they really love making their customers feel like superheroes and saving the day sometimes for them, but really kind of making them shine. So I guess my obvious question to you is, if you had a Customer Success related superpower, what would yours be?
Emily
Ah, okay... Customer Success related superpower. This is a selfish one. I think I'd want the power to read minds. [Laughs]
Masha
Yes! I love it. I love it.
Emily
Because we'll never get it 100%. Right? We could get as predictive as we can with churn. We could have customers with really high health scores and great Support tickets and great NPS ratings and still lose them because we just couldn't unearth that last, like we couldn't turn that last stone and know what they were thinking. So I think my superpower would be to read minds, because if we could do that, it would make our job, I guess it would make it a lot easier. And we'd probably be a lot better at our jobs. And be able to help more customers. I mean, it's about that.
Masha
Right. It's about mutual value. Cool. I love it. That one has made an appearance a few times. [Laughs]
Emily
Has it? Okay, good.
Masha
You're not the only one!
Emily
I'm not the only weirdo who said that. [Laughs]
Masha
No, some people choose omnipresence, some people want to be in everywhere at once, but definitely have heard as well seeing the future.
Emily
I already am omnipresent.
Masha
And maybe you don't need to be in more places!
Emily
No! [Laughs]
Masha
Well, thank you so much for taking the time, Emily, I really appreciate it. It was a great conversation. And thank you so much for sharing all that insight and knowledge.
